I recently got into a long conversation about homosexuality. I was absolutely shocked to see that Christians I knew were claiming that homosexuality was not a sin. I was even more astounded when this person began to twist Scripture to support his claims.
My wife and I watch Modern Family every now and then. Two of the main characters are gay men with an adopted child. Gay marriage is now legal in six states in the US and there will probably be more to come. Many celebrities like Niel Patrick Harris (Doogie Howser/How I Met Your Mother) and Ellen DeGeneres are out of the closet and proud of it. With homosexuality becoming a regular part of our culture, Christians need to know what God has to say about this topic.
What's the Bible say?
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. - Leviticus 18:22
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. – Leviticus 20:13
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. – Romans 1:26-27
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. – 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
…the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,… - 1 Timothy 1:10
There really is no getting around it. The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin.
Modern attempts to twist the Bible
Homosexuality has become such a big issue in our day that many people who adhere to Christianity have tried to justify homosexuality. This often comes out of an admirable desire to love those who are homosexual. However, though it starts with a good intention, it leads to the twisting of God’s Word. What follows are some attempts I’ve seen to twist the Bible into allowing homosexuality along with reasons we cannot accept these theories.
The Trajectory Theory: This theory was made popular by William Web’s book "Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals". In short, this book claims that God is fine with homosexuality, but knew that the ancient world and culture was not ready to accept homosexuals. Instead of rocking the world of the ancient Israelites by allowing homosexuality in the times of the Old Testament, God forbade it but slowly began leading us down a path or trajectory where one day we would be able to accept homosexuality. This theory would claim this is why the Old Testament says to kill a homosexual and the New Testament does not. God is slowly moving us toward accepting it and today, two thousand years after the writing of the New Testament, we should be ready to accept homosexuality.
I’ll start by saying this: Really!? You’re argument in favor of homosexuality is that the Bible indeed starts off as against it? To be more serious, here is why this theory doesn’t work. First, God gives many commands that rocked the ancient world and went against the culture of the day. God commands the people to worship Him alone, when everyone on the planet was worshiping many gods. He doesn’t slowly change this, He demands the switch from polytheism to monotheism. Second, if God truly approved of homosexuality then why would He ever order homosexuals killed as He does in Leviticus 20:13? That seems like a very bad way to help the people slowly accept homosexuality. Third, if we accepted this argument, then the whole of the Bible falls apart. Perhaps God is alright with murder, rape, pedophilia, theft, and who knows what else and He is just waiting for us to come to the point culturally where we are willing to accept those things. I’m sorry, but this argument doesn’t hold water.
Mistranslation: Another argument I’ve heard to support homosexuality is the claim that there was no word for homosexuality in the Hebrew or Greek so every time our English Bibles use those words, they have been mistranslated. According to this argument, the passages I shared above that use the word homosexuality should be translated “effeminate”. So the sin is not a man sleeping with a man but a man acting like and dressing like a woman.
The problem with this is very clearly seen when we look at passages like Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, and Romans 1:26-27. Scroll back up and reread those passages. The word “homosexuality” is never used. Instead, the act is spelled out. A man shall not lie with a man as with a woman. Men exchanged their natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Unless every word in those sentences has been mistranslated, the Bible is pretty clear on what it is saying here!
How should we treat Homosexuals?
Way too many Christians have taught and preached that it is our job to hate and attack homosexuals. Some Christian leaders have misused Old Testament passages to breed all kinds of hateful and sinful responses and attitudes towards those who are gay and lesbian.
While it is true that Leviticus says that men caught in homosexuality are to be put to death, that is not a command for us today. This was a command for the nation of Israel. The Old Testament laws for the nation also commanded that a man and woman caught in adultery should be put to death. We don’t follow these laws because we are not a part of the nation of Israel and Jesus has fulfilled the law!
Jesus has brought in a new way of dealing with sinners. What did He do with sinners?
- He protected them from attacks and abuse. (John 8:7, the woman caught in adultery)
- He spent time with them and loved them. (Matthew 11:19, a friend to tax collectors and prostitutes)
- He also rebuked them and called them to repentance. ( John 2:16, Angry at the temple & John 8:11, Go and sin no more)
Can a homosexual respond to the Gospel?
YES! Here is the truth of the matter. Homosexuals are sinners. And guess what? I’m a sinner. You’re a sinner. There is only one unforgiveable sin, and it is not homosexuality. So what should a homosexual do to respond to Jesus? The same thing a liar, thief, murderer (or someone who hates in their heart), adulterer (or someone who lusts in their heart), idolater or anyone else should do. The same thing you and I do. We confess our sins to Jesus. We put our faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection to pay the penalty for our sins and empower us to a new life. We repent of our sins and get the help we need to sin no more.
Will a homosexual who repents and becomes a Christian still be tempted with homosexual thoughts and desires? They probably will for some time, the same way even though I am a Christian I am still tempted to lie. It will be a struggle, but God has the power to transform lives.
Homosexuality is definitely a sin. While good intentions may make us want to say otherwise in order to just accept people, we must listen to God first. We are to treat homosexuals like we treat all sinners. We lovingly call them to Christ. We are to serve them and respect them. We are to be honest about their sin with them when it is appropriate. We are to rejoice when they repent and put their faith in Jesus.
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Don't forget to vote on the sidebar for the next Theology Thursday topic! There are some new options up there!
So to summarize your "evidence"...
ReplyDeleteThe first two passages you "quote" [Leviticus] clearly don't apply to women.
(I say "quote" because of course English as a language is only about 1500 years old, modern English considerably less so. Whether you believe the original bible, as written, is divine or not, it's not tenable to argue that arbitrary translations of it are also divine, since they are translated in recorded history by known people.)
The following three passages are not prescriptive in nature and thus don't actually corroborate your point. They don't define what is or is not permissible. Also, point of fact, they were all written by Saul of Tarsus, whom even many Christians don't accept as an authority, since he declared a lot of crap by fiat that has no basis in previous scripture nor in the quoted words of Yeshu ha-Notzri, your messiah.
In the third passage [Romans], a lot is going on that casts doubt on your choice of interpretation. First of all, while it may seem to you that "God gave them up" implies a punishment, this is only true from the perspective of a Christian who wishes to be in the grace of god. To a non-Christian this is a completely benign (indeed irrelevant) consequence. This is important because the people Saul is talking about in the passage are, in fact, not Christian.
Additionally, while the passage deplores behavior "contrary to nature", nevertheless there is no scripture in your religion that actually defines being contrary to nature as a sin. It's not one of the ten commandments, it can't be called a consequence of Adam, it's not one of the seven deadly sins, it's not in the covenant of Noah, it's not one of the 613 mitzvot, etc, etc, etc. Many opportunities existed to define "being against nature" as a sin, and yet it never was. Which is lucky for you, in particular, since affirming that which is contrary to established historical and scientific fact is pretty well against nature by any reasonable interpretation of the word.
The fourth and fifth passages [1st Corinthians and 1st Timothy] are again the opinion of Saul, and fall prey to the mistranslation point you glibly cast aside. In fact, we can infer from the passages, as written, that "homosexuality" and "sexual immorality" were apparently distinct and mutually exclusive concepts, since both are mentioned in turn. This tends to weaken your position.
You claim that "Christians need to know what God has to say about this topic" but then you provide only two passages about that, both of which only strictly prohibit a man penetrating another man, rather than the general concept of homosexuality as it is known in the world today (the Leviticus passages specifically don't police intention, merely particular behavior). The other passages you provide have nothing to do with "God" and everything to do with "Saul of Tarsus". Maybe I've missed a fine point of Christianity and you actually believe that Saul is a god, but I'm pretty sure you don't.
Here is the actual truth of the matter: by the logic of the scripture you provide, only Christian homosexual men who penetrate other men are sinners. Other homosexuals, even other Christian homosexuals, and all homosexual women (Christian or not), are not transgressing any specific commandment of your religion. Thus, homosexuality, as such, is not a sin. Meaning you're wrong. Checkmate.
I disagree with almost all of what you just said and I would like to respond a bit. However, some of the attitude which you give off in your comment such as your use of the word "Checkmate" indicate you might be a bit of a troll.
ReplyDeleteSo before I actually respond to what you said I have two-ish questions.
1) Are you actually open to hearing and analyzing my response or are you absolutely convinced you are right regardless of what I say? Please be honest as I'd prefer not to waste my time if the latter is the case.
2) If you are an atheist, then why argue about the Bible at all? Do you believe the Bible should be taken seriously or believe it should be disregarded because there is no God?
Well put, Mark. I appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts. You are very organized in your thoughts and have great support to your arguments. Thanks for taking time to write about controversial topics. I enjoy reading your posts, getting a glimpse into your mind, and can see your clear love for God and His Word!
ReplyDeleteThanks Jennifer!
ReplyDeleteNo matter what Richard's responses are, even if it's no response, I don't think your response would be a waste of time. I see an opportunity here for other people reading this to learn. Seeing how you respond will help other people who read this have a better idea of how to respond to the things that Richard brings up.
ReplyDeletePaul and others have convinced me to respond to Richard's comments. I will be quoting him in pieces and responding to each piece. It is long this way, so I will have to break it up into two or more comments.
ReplyDeleteRichard said:
The first two passages you "quote" [Leviticus] clearly don't apply to women.
(I say "quote" because of course English as a language is only about 1500 years old, modern English considerably less so. Whether you believe the original bible, as written, is divine or not, it's not tenable to argue that arbitrary translations of it are also divine, since they are translated in recorded history by known people.)
My Response
I agree that the English translations of the Bible that I use are not the end all be all. I do not consider them to be the exact inspired words from God. However, the good ones (ESV, NASB, NIV) are quite trustworthy in translating from the original Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Good scholars have poured thousands of hours into accurately translating these texts, study Bibles include footnotes on difficult to translate passages, and the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic are available online for those who want to double check everything. Our English translations are reliable.
Richard said:
The following three passages are not prescriptive in nature and thus don't actually corroborate your point. They don't define what is or is not permissible.
My response:
I believe you are referring to the Romans, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy passages. I have to disagree. These texts are very much prescriptive. For those who don’t know, texts can be descriptive or prescriptive. When the Bible says that Joseph’s brothers tossed him in a well and sold him into slavery, this is a descriptive text. It tells us what happened, but it is not telling us we ought to throw our younger brothers down wells and enslave them. When the Bible says, “You shall not kill,” it is a prescriptive text. It is telling us what we ought to or ought not do.
While the three New Testament passages do not say, “You shall not practice homosexuality,” they are still prescriptive. Take a look. The Romans passage calls homosexuality, dishonorable, shameful, and contrary to nature. It also says that it is an error that has a due penalty attached to it. The 1 Corinthians passage puts homosexuality in the context of unrighteous acts and says that those who practice it will not go to heaven. The 1 Timothy passage puts those who practice homosexuality in the context of those who are lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinners (see verse 9). While *these* passages do not say, “You shall not practice homosexuality,” they are very clearly telling us not to do it as it is contrary to nature, dishonorable, shameful, unrighteous, lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinful, and carries a penalty with its error, namely, exclusion from heaven and condemnation to hell. There is no way to argue that this is not telling us how we ought to act.
Notice that I stressed that *these* passages do not say, “You shall not…” This is because the two Leviticus passages very clearly do prohibit homosexuality.
Richard said:
ReplyDeleteAlso, point of fact, they were all written by Saul of Tarsus, whom even many Christians don't accept as an authority, since he declared a lot of crap by fiat that has no basis in previous scripture nor in the quoted words of Yeshu ha-Notzri, your messiah.
My Response:
Yes, those three passages were all written by Saul of Tarsus after his conversion to Paul when the risen Lord appeared to him and commissioned him. Paul wrote most of the epistles and possibly Hebrews. However, your claim that “many” Christians don’t accept Paul’s writings as Scripture that belongs in the Bible is simply untrue. Since the beginning days of the church, Paul’s writings were circulated throughout the churches and read as Scripture. We have ancient records of many early church fathers quoting Paul’s writings as Scripture. The apostle Peter himself, the first leader of the church after Jesus, says that Paul’s writings are on equal ground with the rest of the Bible in 2 Peter 3:15-16. The three major Christian traditions (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant) all include these writings as Holy Scripture and God’s Word. Frankly, there are very few Christians in all of history who claim otherwise. Your view strays so far from Christian orthodoxy that it is either very close to or actually is heresy.
Richard said:
In the third passage [Romans], a lot is going on that casts doubt on your choice of interpretation. First of all, while it may seem to you that "God gave them up" implies a punishment, this is only true from the perspective of a Christian who wishes to be in the grace of god. To a non-Christian this is a completely benign (indeed irrelevant) consequence. This is important because the people Saul is talking about in the passage are, in fact, not Christian.
My Response:
I’ll be honest, I’m not sure of your point here. As I mentioned above, this passage clearly shows homosexuality is a sin by calling it dishonorable, shameful, contrary to nature, and an error with a due penalty. The idea of God giving them up is definitely a bad thing. Its sort of like two siblings who are always disobeying their father when he tells them not to do bad things. It gets to the point where the father finally says, “You know what, go ahead. Do whatever you want. I’m not going to try to stop you anymore.” That’s sad stuff. I suppose if you are saying that a non-Christian wouldn’t care what this verse is saying I would have to agree. People who don’t believe in the God of the Bible would definitely not care what the God of the Bible has to say. But that doesn’t change the fact that this passage in the Bible is condemning homosexuality. The Bible condemns it, whether you as a non-Christian agree with what the Bible says is a very separate issue and has little to do with this topic. However, I do sincerely hope and pray that God would open your eyes to trust His word. If you’d like to speak about evidence that shows the Bible is more than just a normal book and is indeed God’s Word, we can speak about that. But that’s another topic. Just let me know and I’d love to share the things that have convinced me.
Richard said:
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, while the passage deplores behavior "contrary to nature", nevertheless there is no scripture in your religion that actually defines being contrary to nature as a sin. It's not one of the ten commandments, it can't be called a consequence of Adam, it's not one of the seven deadly sins, it's not in the covenant of Noah, it's not one of the 613 mitzvot, etc, etc, etc. Many opportunities existed to define "being against nature" as a sin, and yet it never was. Which is lucky for you, in particular, since affirming that which is contrary to established historical and scientific fact is pretty well against nature by any reasonable interpretation of the word.
My Response:
I suppose the Bible doesn’t explicitly say that being contrary to nature is a sin. However, from the perspective that God is the Creator and therefore God has designed nature, it follows that going against God’s design is to go against God. Regardless of the moral standing of the phrase “contrary to nature” you can tell that this is a bad thing because the very same passage calls this act shameful, dishonorable, and an error with a due penalty.
Richard said:
The fourth and fifth passages [1st Corinthians and 1st Timothy] are again the opinion of Saul, and fall prey to the mistranslation point you glibly cast aside. In fact, we can infer from the passages, as written, that "homosexuality" and "sexual immorality" were apparently distinct and mutually exclusive concepts, since both are mentioned in turn. This tends to weaken your position.
My Response:
First, I did not cast aside the issue of the supposed “mistranslations”. I very clearly showed that the two Leviticus passages override any claims about the mistranslations. The Leviticus passages do not use any word for “homosexuality”. Instead, they spell it out by saying a man shall not lie with a man as with a woman. Its very clear and there can be no argument for mistranslation.
Secondly, if you would like an in depth analysis of the supposed mistranslations of the word “homosexuality,” I will give some briefly. The word in 1 Corinthians 6 that we translate as “homosexuality” is the word “malakos”. This word can be translated in several ways. Most often it means “soft”. In that culture, this word was used to specifically describe the “girlier” man in a gay relationship. I don’t mean to be offensive, but in our culture it is sort of like the word “fruit” or “sissy” being used. This word is documented in other ancient texts as referring to one of the two homosexual partners. I won’t go into the details as it gets somewhat crude. The word in 1 Timothy 1 that we translate as “homosexuality” is the Greek word “arsenokoites”. This word is actually extremely clear. This word is a compound word made by merging the words “arsen” which means man or male and “kotes” which means sexual intercourse and is where the English word “coitus” comes from. When they are put together the word “arsenokoites” clearly means something like “man-sexers” or “those who have sex with men”. To add even further evidence that this word should be translated as “homosexuality,” these are the words used in the Septuagint to translate Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 from Hebrew into Greek. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament written in the third century BC. This is a document Paul would have had access to as an educated Pharisee. The Old Testament passages that say a man shall not lie with a man is with a woman literally use the words “arsen” and “koites” when translated into the Greek to ban homosexuality. Why then should the word “arsenokoites” be taken to mean anything other than “homosexuality”? If you’d like more information on this, there is an excellent article written by Gary R. Jepsen that you can find here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MDO/is_5_33/ai_n27013812/
Thirdly, just because the terms “homosexuality” and “sexual immorality” are separate on the list doesn’t mean they have nothing to do with each other. In fact, you’ll notice that “the sexually immoral” and “adulterers” as well as “the greedy” and “swindlers” are separated in the 1 Corinthians passage. Those clearly are connected to each other so your argument that separation means they have nothing to do with each other falls apart.
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I feel I have addressed all of your arguments except one. I think you indicated that the Bible doesn’t actually condemn female homosexuality or lesbianism anywhere. However, if you reread the Romans passage I quoted, you’ll see that it does. “For their women exchanged natural relations with those that are contrary to nature…” That statement combined with the clearer explanation about the men make this a very clear condemnation of lesbianism.
To Richard, I hope you consider these things and weigh the evidence. Please keep any further comments respectful. To anyone else who read this, I hope you find this information helpful.
Also, one more thing Richard mentioned that I missed. He said:
ReplyDeleteThe other passages you provide have nothing to do with "God" and everything to do with "Saul of Tarsus". Maybe I've missed a fine point of Christianity and you actually believe that Saul is a god, but I'm pretty sure you don't.
My Response:
I suppose you are missing one of the main doctrines of Christianity. This is understandable as you are not a practicing Christian. Allow me to explain. Christians believe that the entire Bible is the Word of God. This includes the writings of Moses in the Pentateuch, the writings of the prophets, the writings of the apostles in the New Testament, and, on our subject, the writings of Paul. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,..." We believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the human authors and guided them through using their personalities to write the exact words He intended. So, while Paul wrote Romans, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy, we Christians believe that God wrote them as well. Paul's claims that homosexuality is a sin are therefore, more importantly, God's claims. Paul is not God, but God used him to write His Word.
Well done Mark! I never read your reply on this before until I was a cleaning out my email notes. You are pretty clear and respectful here.
ReplyDelete